When I look back on this book, the most memorable events were the flood and fire. These moments stick out to me because they were the most chaotic and filled with action. I think these could symbolize something significant. Aren’t water and fire part of the classical elements that represent certain things. Water, fire, earth, and air are all ancient representatives of different powers of the earth or something. Does anyone know if this could mean anything. Even if the flood and fire have nothing to do with the elements, do you think there still is something important regarding natural disasters? Also, how the Bundren family seems to be plagued with getting themselves involved in such disastrous events. Any thoughts? - kec-c Feb 24, 2008
On page 168, Cora and Addie are talking about how Jewel is Addie's punishment. Addie says, "He is my cross and he will be my salvation. He will save me from the water and from the fire. Even though have laid down my life, he will save me." This is definitely a significant part of the book. When I first read it, I got the impression that it was talking about the flood in the bible, and how the end of the world will come by fire. The point of the flood was to wash away the sinful, but I'm not sure how that relates to the novel. Maybe the river exposed the sinful. It showed that Anse would do nothing to help his family if it meant breaking a sweat for one. The fire part makes more sense as it signified the end of Darl's world. This was the beginning of the end of Darl's sanity as well as the other Bundrens' compassion. It would have also been the end of the world for Addie's body except for the fact that Jewel pulled her out. I wonder if there's a significance of Jewel being the one to keep her in the world. - LDo-c Feb 24, 2008
I, too, recognized this as well. The events that stick out to me are the flood in the river which eventually lead to the team of horses being killed and Cash's leg being broken. After this, the barn was burned down by Darl, and Cash's leg was "burning" when it was cast in cement. All of these events relate to something dangerous and disastrous, no doubt. Another thing about these elements is that they control each other as well. Water puts a fire out, but a fire can be so powerful that nothing can stop it. Also, these disasters have also been the beginnings of several events as well. The family had to get a new set of mules, and the barn will have to be rebuilt. Anyone else have suggestions? - bzw-c Feb 24, 2008
Concerning the issue about the flood and the fire, both times Jewel had come out on top; he saved the coffin, and then he did again from the burning barn. He triumphed over mother nature. In my mind, that was an idea that he expressed in the Nobel speech. He merely put those ideas to work in As I Lay Dying because it reflects Faulkner's idea that man is not immortal merely because he will endure, but that he will prevail. Not only was Jewel able to escape death at the hands of mother nature, but he was able to save his mother from being burned and drowned. It's supposed to represent man's resilience and that there is still hope. It also gives hope because it shows a different side to Jewel; when his mother was alive he showed no emotion to her, but now he is finally doing so by going through so much just to save her body, so she can be buried in Jefferson.- MSu-c Feb 24, 2008
I agree with this notion of Faulkner having events such as the flood and fire happen to show how humans have the resolve to just keep pushing forward in spite of any obstacle. If anything, what the Bundrens did was honorably because they had a set goal of getting the coffin to Jefferson and they steadfastly stuck to that goal in spite of all the problems with the river flooding and then Darl later setting fire to the barn. The vibe I got was one of never giving up, never surrendering, and just constantly enduring to finish out the goal that was set. I think though that it was Anse above all of them who really wanted to get the coffin all the way to Jefferson whereas the other members of the family I think would have been content giving up far earlier. While this makes Anse sound noble, I wonder about his real motivations for taking the coffin to Jefferson because in the end he does end up with a new wife to replace Addie as soon as her coffin is in the ground so I guess I'm just a little uncertain as to exactly what gives Anse his resolve and drive to finish this task. I just feel like he did it for himself because he felt he could find a woman to replace Addie quickly upon entering Jackson, and he obviously succeeded.
I guess my overall notion about these major events is that yes, the family endured, but it was only because Anse pushed them for his own selfish reasons. In regards to Cash's broken leg on page 240, Peabody said "You mean, it never bothered Anse much." To me, this sums up this whole journey through fire and flood because it exemplifies how Anse pushed his family through this whole ordeal without much regard to their personal safety all so that he could complete this journey to get himself a new wife. This is a story of manipulation, and I honestly think they would have given up on the journey to Jefferson after the flood were it not for Anse selfishly pushing them along.- KRi-c Feb 24, 2008
Well, KRi, I don't think that Anse was the only one being selfish on the journey to Jefferson -- Dewey Dell definitely had her reasons to go, too. But anyways, bzw, I am intrigued by what you said about the elements controlling each other. Water can put out the fire, but sometimes the fire is too big for the water to control it. I think this has a great significance, but I can't exactly pinpoint it. I want to say that Jewel could symbolize the water? maybe? As the water in the river, he carries his mother in the coffin like he carried his mother through life. His mother loved him best, and that love kept her going...but I have problems keeping that image with the barn fire. If Jewel is the water trying to put out the barn fire, which could symbolize death or the end of the world as someone was saying, then the water was enough to save her body from turning into ashes from the fire, but it was not enough to save her from death altogether. I think that makes sense.... does anybody else understand what I'm trying to say? - kkr-c Feb 24, 2008 Because of the quote from page 168 that LDo mentioned, I think that the flood and fire must have something to do with the biblical symbols of water and fire. In the Bible, water is sometimes used to represent truth. In the book, the character's true colors shine through at the crossing of the flooded river. This event reveal truths about each of them just as LDo said that it exposed their sinfulness. Fire is used to represent trials in the Bible. The fire in the novel tried the strength of the characters and their bonds as a family. It pushed them to their limits in many ways. For example, it pushed their limits of how to treat Darl who they give up on and send to a mental institution. They weren't able to survive their trial of fire as a family. It ultimately broke them apart.- bga-c Feb 25, 2008
On a slightly separate note, I was struck by that same quote in the foreshadowing that it represented for what was to come. Even Cora recognized that Addie was not talking about God, she was talking about Jewel. Somehow she knew that Jewel would save her through these events, since Addie was not a religious person (even though these sound like religious phrases), I can only imagine that she meant it quite literally. I guess this could tie into the almost supernatural connection between Darl and Dewey Dell, as another 'supernatural' incident in the novel. On the topic of fire and flood, I do see the biblical reference, but on the more basic level fire and water represent cleansing and rebirth. Just as the wildfires as necessary to stimulate fresh growth and water is necessary to create life, the fire and the flood can represent the same thing for the Bundren family. They are leaving behind the world that they knew with Addie and facing a new world, for Jewel one without his horse, for Dewey Dell one with motherhood, for Cash one with a shortened leg, for Darl one with insanity, for Anse one with new teeth and a new wife. Though the fire and flood may not always provide the best outcomes, they inevitably change the who the characters were into the people they become at the end. - AHa-c Feb 25, 2008
On page 168, Cora and Addie are talking about how Jewel is Addie's punishment. Addie says, "He is my cross and he will be my salvation. He will save me from the water and from the fire. Even though have laid down my life, he will save me." This is definitely a significant part of the book. When I first read it, I got the impression that it was talking about the flood in the bible, and how the end of the world will come by fire. The point of the flood was to wash away the sinful, but I'm not sure how that relates to the novel. Maybe the river exposed the sinful. It showed that Anse would do nothing to help his family if it meant breaking a sweat for one. The fire part makes more sense as it signified the end of Darl's world. This was the beginning of the end of Darl's sanity as well as the other Bundrens' compassion. It would have also been the end of the world for Addie's body except for the fact that Jewel pulled her out. I wonder if there's a significance of Jewel being the one to keep her in the world.
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I, too, recognized this as well. The events that stick out to me are the flood in the river which eventually lead to the team of horses being killed and Cash's leg being broken. After this, the barn was burned down by Darl, and Cash's leg was "burning" when it was cast in cement. All of these events relate to something dangerous and disastrous, no doubt. Another thing about these elements is that they control each other as well. Water puts a fire out, but a fire can be so powerful that nothing can stop it. Also, these disasters have also been the beginnings of several events as well. The family had to get a new set of mules, and the barn will have to be rebuilt. Anyone else have suggestions? -
Concerning the issue about the flood and the fire, both times Jewel had come out on top; he saved the coffin, and then he did again from the burning barn. He triumphed over mother nature. In my mind, that was an idea that he expressed in the Nobel speech. He merely put those ideas to work in As I Lay Dying because it reflects Faulkner's idea that man is not immortal merely because he will endure, but that he will prevail. Not only was Jewel able to escape death at the hands of mother nature, but he was able to save his mother from being burned and drowned. It's supposed to represent man's resilience and that there is still hope. It also gives hope because it shows a different side to Jewel; when his mother was alive he showed no emotion to her, but now he is finally doing so by going through so much just to save her body, so she can be buried in Jefferson.-
I agree with this notion of Faulkner having events such as the flood and fire happen to show how humans have the resolve to just keep pushing forward in spite of any obstacle. If anything, what the Bundrens did was honorably because they had a set goal of getting the coffin to Jefferson and they steadfastly stuck to that goal in spite of all the problems with the river flooding and then Darl later setting fire to the barn. The vibe I got was one of never giving up, never surrendering, and just constantly enduring to finish out the goal that was set. I think though that it was Anse above all of them who really wanted to get the coffin all the way to Jefferson whereas the other members of the family I think would have been content giving up far earlier. While this makes Anse sound noble, I wonder about his real motivations for taking the coffin to Jefferson because in the end he does end up with a new wife to replace Addie as soon as her coffin is in the ground so I guess I'm just a little uncertain as to exactly what gives Anse his resolve and drive to finish this task. I just feel like he did it for himself because he felt he could find a woman to replace Addie quickly upon entering Jackson, and he obviously succeeded.
I guess my overall notion about these major events is that yes, the family endured, but it was only because Anse pushed them for his own selfish reasons. In regards to Cash's broken leg on page 240, Peabody said "You mean, it never bothered Anse much." To me, this sums up this whole journey through fire and flood because it exemplifies how Anse pushed his family through this whole ordeal without much regard to their personal safety all so that he could complete this journey to get himself a new wife. This is a story of manipulation, and I honestly think they would have given up on the journey to Jefferson after the flood were it not for Anse selfishly pushing them along.-
Well, KRi, I don't think that Anse was the only one being selfish on the journey to Jefferson -- Dewey Dell definitely had her reasons to go, too. But anyways, bzw, I am intrigued by what you said about the elements controlling each other. Water can put out the fire, but sometimes the fire is too big for the water to control it. I think this has a great significance, but I can't exactly pinpoint it. I want to say that Jewel could symbolize the water? maybe? As the water in the river, he carries his mother in the coffin like he carried his mother through life. His mother loved him best, and that love kept her going...but I have problems keeping that image with the barn fire. If Jewel is the water trying to put out the barn fire, which could symbolize death or the end of the world as someone was saying, then the water was enough to save her body from turning into ashes from the fire, but it was not enough to save her from death altogether. I think that makes sense.... does anybody else understand what I'm trying to say? -
Because of the quote from page 168 that LDo mentioned, I think that the flood and fire must have something to do with the biblical symbols of water and fire. In the Bible, water is sometimes used to represent truth. In the book, the character's true colors shine through at the crossing of the flooded river. This event reveal truths about each of them just as LDo said that it exposed their sinfulness. Fire is used to represent trials in the Bible. The fire in the novel tried the strength of the characters and their bonds as a family. It pushed them to their limits in many ways. For example, it pushed their limits of how to treat Darl who they give up on and send to a mental institution. They weren't able to survive their trial of fire as a family. It ultimately broke them apart.-
On a slightly separate note, I was struck by that same quote in the foreshadowing that it represented for what was to come. Even Cora recognized that Addie was not talking about God, she was talking about Jewel. Somehow she knew that Jewel would save her through these events, since Addie was not a religious person (even though these sound like religious phrases), I can only imagine that she meant it quite literally. I guess this could tie into the almost supernatural connection between Darl and Dewey Dell, as another 'supernatural' incident in the novel. On the topic of fire and flood, I do see the biblical reference, but on the more basic level fire and water represent cleansing and rebirth. Just as the wildfires as necessary to stimulate fresh growth and water is necessary to create life, the fire and the flood can represent the same thing for the Bundren family. They are leaving behind the world that they knew with Addie and facing a new world, for Jewel one without his horse, for Dewey Dell one with motherhood, for Cash one with a shortened leg, for Darl one with insanity, for Anse one with new teeth and a new wife. Though the fire and flood may not always provide the best outcomes, they inevitably change the who the characters were into the people they become at the end. -